Maybe Intel made too many compromises and OEMs reached too far with their designs. On one hand a fast race to sleep is good, yet on the other hand, I'd rather be a slow and steady tortoise who finishes the race than a hare that turbos and sleeps frequently to prevent overheating. Device buyers don't care about TDP or poorly set skin temperature limits, they'll just swear off Core M products that give them throttled 600 MHz speeds instead of full power.
Good point, though I tend to think it'll depend on the use cases. I went back to separate desktop(s) / laptop (rather than a single, uber-laptop) about a year ago. Consequently the laptop can be optimized for size / weight / mobility, for which a core-m device is helpful.
Exactly the same here. I will do my video and image editing on my quad-core desktop anyway, so a core M is perfect: I need portability and battery life in a laptop, not raw performance. Intel made just the right chip for a customer like me here. Too bad that on the desktop side, where I would love an affordable six or eight core with a high tdp, they fail me.
I tried doing the same thing, but portability quickly triumphs any advantage of a powerful desktop, especially when a good powerful laptop can do most of what I need. I bought the 2nd gen Mac Book Air for my wife and it was good for her basic multimedia requirements (Photoshop, Final Cut Pro, etc.), but the latest Mac Book just isn't powerful enough for any of her needs.
Turbo gives the system increased responsiveness under bursty loads, i.e. most everyday workloads. There's no good reason not to use the performance available and be a tortoise voluntarily. When the load is sustained over longer periods, Turbo automatically throttles back to what ever limit the OEM has set. Had you choosen the tortoise mode, you would have started at this point. With Turbo you don't loose any performance compared to this scenario, it just makes you reach the limit quicker. Turbo also autoamtically factors in things like "how many cores are loaded", "how stresful is this program in reality", "how good is the device cooling" and "how hot is the ambient" by simply measuring them empirically (power consumption & temperature). In fixed tortoise mode you'd have to predict all of them and assume the worst case, just like Intel & AMD did for the first dual and quad cores with low fixed frequencies.
If Turbo results in "turbos and sleeps frequently to prevent overheating" it is simply set up badly, significantly worse than Turbo on Intel Desktop CPUs since a few years. Instead of sleeping to avoid overheating the turbo bin must gradually be lowered until a good steady state is reached.
Forgot to add: it would be really nice if there was a simple user control for their current preference of maximum performance vs. tolerated temperature. Win allows limiting a CPUs maximum performance state, but most users will never find this option in the advanced energy settings. A simple slider as a sidebar-like gadget could work well. Not only for Core-M, but also for regular laptops and desktops. Add one slider for each discrete GPU's power target.
Also, MS removed that option in all their PCs with connected standby. You can still enable it through the registry, but regular users are even less likely to make use of that option. We need some sane defaults set so we can have separate "Low Power", "Balanced" and "Overdrive" modes. We won't care about skin temperature if we've chosen to use that temperature briefly and we have an option to turn it back down.
the biggest problem is Windows packaging in tons of storage indexing that runs every time you log in, or letting services run around in the background and datamine (Facebook, Amazon Music re-scans every 10 minutes-- I mean seriously? might as sell me a phone with 100MB less of RAM if you're going to do that)
Won't an over-aggressive turbo actually decrease performance? Processors are generally less power efficient at higher clock speeds, i.e., running at 3GHz is twice as fast as 1.5GHz but generally uses more than 2x the power, and thus more than 2x the heat.
In this case, therefore, a processor that races to 3GHz will quickly (and less efficiently) use up its thermal headroom and have to throttle back moreso than a processor that stayed at 2GHz.
It's like a footrace - if the race is 100m long, you're going to finish fastest if you go all out. However, if the race is a mile long, then the guy who starts off sprinting is going to be sputtering along a quarter of the way into the race as the joggers pass him up.
You are right that with agressive Turbo the chip is running in a less power efficient state initially and will have to throttle a bit earlier than a slower, steadily running chip. but if we're talking about low performance under sustained loads, this doesn't matter: it affects the first few seconds, or 10's of seconds at most, whereas in the following minutes both systems are running at the same power efficient throttled speed, which is basically determined by the system cooling. It's not like the sprinter who's completely exhausted and can't recover.
I dont think its really all that complicated... If you are looking for raw performance, Core M isnt for you. It is really for low power devices that do basic stuff like browsing, email etc. For that purpose, its one hell of a CPU. That performance level at 4.5 watts is a hefty accomplishment IMO
I do development on a Core M machine. Instead of carrying 4 pounds of computing power on my back, I let a cloud based development box do the heavy lifting. The plume light Core M notebook is used basically to write the code and give orders to the Dev box. IMHO opinion a far better setup than having scoliosis for the sake of running code locally.
It's not for web browsing. That's what Atom is for. A Core-M device is good for all regular core tasks except sustained graphics tasks. I wouldn't get one to game, but it'll be great for anything else.
Both make sense from the perspective of increasing perceived speed. With storage, it hanging and being slow is the biggest way it can impact the feel of the device, while processors that trade finishing short tasks much faster for a tiny decrease in how fast they complete long tasks do a lot to achieve a responsive feel.
Device buyers don't buy devices to get a higher average frequency, they buy things to do what they want without the device holding them up. Look at the benchmarks where the ASUS holds higher average frequencies but the Yoga's higher maximum frequency means it completes tasks faster, and it performs better in the benchmark. That sort of responsiveness is what turbo is for. The time to complete long tasks isn't going to be materially changed but the time to complete short tasks is going to be reduced significantly if the processor can use a quick burst like turbo allows.
I'm also pretty sure that most users consider not getting burned by their device a good thing that should continue, incidentally.
That's not a real use case though. Real use case is load a page (low CPU), render page (high CPU) read page (low CPU). I don't care how fast my CPU is idling while I'm reading the page, I do care how fast the page renders. It'd be different if I were running simulations.. that's what desktop CPUs are for.
If the device buyer's choice is between the Core M and an ARM or Atom they're going to go with the Core M because it's faster in every aspect, especially burst performance. If the Core M in unacceptable slow for you then there aren't any other options at the 4.5W TDP level to turn to, it's the best currently available.
That ("Maybe Intel made too many compromises") seems like the wrong lesson. I think a better lesson is that the Clayton Christensen wheel of reincarnation has turned yet again.
There was a time more than 40 years ago when creating a computer was a demanding enough exercise that the only companies that could do it well were integrated top to bottom, forced to do everything from designing the CPU to the OS to the languages that ran on it. The PC exploded this model as standardized interfaces allowed different vendors to supply the BIOS, the OS, the CPU, the motherboard, the storage, etc.
BUT as we push harder and harder against fundamental physics and what we want the devices to do, the abstractions of these "interfaces" start to impose serious costs. It's no longer good enough to just slap parts together and assume that the whole will work acceptably. We have seen this in mobile, with a gradual thinning out of the field there; but we're poised to see the same thing in PCs (at least in very mobile PCs which, sadly for the OEMs, is the most dynamic part of the business).
This also suggests that Apple's advantage is just going to keep climbing. Even as they use Intel chips like everyone else, they have a lot more control over the whole package, from precisely tweaked OS dynamics to exquisitely machined bodies that are that much more effective in heat dissipation. (And it gets even worse if they decide to switch to their own CPU+GPU SoC for OSX.) It's interesting, in this context, where the higher frequency 1.2GHz part is difficult for some vendors to handle, to realize that Apple is offering a (Apple-only?) 1.3/2.9GHz option which, presumably, they believe they have embodied in a case that can handle its peak thermals and get useful work out of the extra speed boost.
Device buyers don't even see beyond the price tag, brand name and looks. 90% of the people who buy tech are pretty oblivious on what they are buying. So they wouldn't even know if a device would throttle the speed at all.
Secondly I'd rather have a device that throttles good which processors are doing the last couple of years than have a steady pace at which it just crawls along and maybe after 5 minutes decides... hey maybe I can add 200 MHz and still be okay. If that is your case I bet you still have the first generation smartphone in your pocket instead of a more recent model because they all aggressively throttle the CPU and GPU in order to keep you from throwing your phone out of your hands ;)
Your description doesn't follow the usage paradigm of most computing tasks. As the user is actively using their device what they do on the machine roughly tracks the user's thought patterns which largely takes place in series. He doesn't batch the tasks in his head first and then execute them. So race to sleep is where it's at.
What about Intel's native 4 core mobile CPUs. Are any in the works? Core M,Y, U(2 core) etc might be OK for bloggers, content consumers etc but if one wants/needs real performance on the go, there's not that much new to offer, right?
"Atom competed against high powered ARM SoCs and fit in that mini-PC/tablet to sub 10-inch 2-in-1 area either running Android, Windows RT or the full Windows 8.1 in many of the devices on the market." Atom in Windows RT? Wasn't RT ARM only?
In this space it's clear that the top design consideration is cooling - do that well, and everything else follows. Performance will be delivered by the SoC's ability to turbo as needed, power consumption by the SoC and the rest of the design.
Of course materials, size, the question of passive vs. active cooling ... all that also factors decisively into the success of a design, whether the target market actually buys the devices.
But the effectiveness of the cooling will largely determine performance.
You insist on only showing low power CPU results , because putting them properly in context would hurt sales right? God forbid you include laptops.... And today somehow you decided to fully ignore AMD too. Maybe stop working for Intel and serve your readers instead.
This is an evaluation of what Core M is and what this means for devices using it. It's neither a comparison to other device and CPU classes, nor a general recommendation of this product.
I guess it's easy to confuse discussions of architectural details for devices that have already been reviewed on this very site with articles comparing those devices to other similar devices when the preexisting reviews contain many of the very comparisons you want.
This article was never about comparing the CPU's to AMD or anyone. It was about explaining why we are getting awkward results across the board on the performance of these low TDP Intel parts.
Nothing to do with AMD, or even the specific OEM's products either, so much as their construction and heat dissipation performance, but it was only in an effort to further explain the varying results of these low TDP Intel chips.
Yeah, it's ridiculous. Why isn't there also a comparison against a POWER8 --- that would DEMOLISH this silly little Broadwell-Y. And they're going on about how great the power dissipation is? Compare it against an ARM M0 and look who has crazy low power dissipation then!
I demand that every future AnandTech review compare any CPU against every other other CPU in the known universe, no matter how irrelevant the comparison...
That price tag makes this the most confusing and out-of-place processor from Intel... Microsoft proved that Haswell-U can power an ultra-thin x86 tablet, have mobile SoC comparable battery life, and price it comparably or even lower than Core M products. All that with the added benefit of better performance...
OEMs can take advantage of lower pricing on some Broadwell-U processors, and install a better/thinner active cooling solution with the savings. So where does that put Core M other than "luxury" devices that have no need for "real" performance advantages?
Central argument proposed was that SP3 somehow proves that Haswell-U can power ultra-thin X86 tablets. There were no mentions about Windows or OSX compatibility in original statement.
Keyword is Tablet. x86, ultra-thin etc. are describe terms. You don't need to go far and see that the statement is clearly false. Ultra-thin in context of tablets means these days that thickness of the device should to be somewhere around 6-7mm. SP3 is 9mm. I picked iPad Air 2, because it is the most well known of competitors. We could just as well use Dell Venue 8. Ipad thickness is 6.1 and Dell is 6mm thick. Later is even x86 and runs windows
Weight was another thing. Naturally comparing weight to Venue 8 makes very little sense since SP3 has over twice the total screen area of Venue 8 so I compare it with iPad air 2, which has the biggest screen area of the most well known tablets in the market. Most certainly, there are some less well known 12" models, but they are not widely spread and have hardly any market penetration.
I cannot see how SP3 would prove that 15w TDP allows for compact tablet designs. SP3 is already thermally limited and mostly proves to me that in order to reach smaller and thinner designs, lower power SOC's are necessary. From my point of view SP3 is full computer which offers decent (though arguably best in class) tablet usability in addition of being dockable general purpose PC-computer.
come on, you change the comparison in the same sentence, SP3 is thinner and lighter than SP2, and has has higher res screen. As for ipad air, try to run Windows on it....
Or even if it ran OSX. The iPad is a giant iPhone. If it ran OSX, then we could compare it to SP3. For now, iPad can only be compared to Android tablets.
Being thicker than slower devices and slower than thicker devices only proves that it fits between them on a size/performance scale and does nothing to show that it's not a good device.
My desktop is also thicker than iPaid Air2, weighs more, has active cooling and certainly eats more power. So ... ?
You have to realize, that this 4.5W chip actually has performance that is in league with 15W chip. For many ultrabook/2-in-1 use cases ideal chip. And read the Yoga3 review, where on CPU-bound benchmarks, Core-M runs circles around A8X.
I agree with some of the other posters. The problem is the price of these devices for the performance. I can see them for say business use, where the company is paying, use is light, and mobility is important (say for a sales rep who travels a lot), but otherwise, I cant see Joe Average Consumer paying north of 1000 for these when you can get similar perrformance for less in a 350.00 conventional laptop or less performance, but still decent in a 100 to 300 dollar atom device.
The ASUS is in the 700 dollar range and avoids a great many other compromises cheaper devices would make. It fits into the price/quality scale very nicely.
From gaming / usability perspective the average-results do not necessarily tell enough.
Ie. does the usage experience of certain devices suffer because GPU / CPU throttles too much under certain loads?
Are the bottom 10% frametimes so horrendous on throttling devices that DOTA-gaming is practically out of question despite relatively small difference in average frame rates?
Minor issue with one of the graphs. PCMark8 Home graph, the temperature scales are different for each device, whereas they look to be the same for all other tests. The numbers are correct, but when quickly comparing graphs it can be confusing to read. THANKS for this great article, it gives a lot of insight into mobile hardware design.
Very interesting article. Core M makes sense (contrary to what some people say in the comments) for those that have the money and want a totally silent device. Having said that, some ultrabooks and core tablets (like my 35W TDP Asus ultrabook or my surface pro 3 i3) are extremely silent, with the fan kicking in only while gaming, which in my opinion is a small concession in exchange for sustained performance (zero throttling in either of the 2 devices). Also the race to the thinnest device is probably questionable, especially for laptops. Making a smaller device with a bigger screen like Dell did is a great idea, making it thinner and thinner doesn't add much and subtracts performance or adds heat. What a pity you didn't add the new Macbook to the comparison (probably not available yet). Hope you will do an updated version with it. It will also allow to see how 5y71 performs in a laptop, rather than in a convertible/tablet.
The problem with just making devices thicker and adding fans is that it compromises portability for only a little in extra performance.
For nearly a decade, I carried around a 15" PowerBook or MacBook Pro. Good machines but only mid-range graphic performance. Recently, I slimmed down to an 11" MacBook Air, and I will never...ever...go back to lugging around a larger device.
I also have a desktop Windows Workstation for performance oriented work. It's much faster than any laptop you can buy. Using Drop Box and One Drive I keep files synced between the two machines, and can just hop-up from my Workstation, grab my Mac Book, and hit the door.
Thankfully, my computer budget is large enough to afford a Workstation and a Mac Book - it's actually a necessity for cross-platform developers. I get extreme performance from my workstation and extreme portability from my Mac Book. I don't have to live with compromises, I just have to switch devices.
I'm all for small form factors and portability, I notice the difference between my 15 inch laptop and my girlfriends 10 inch convertable. It is substantial, but I don't feel that going thinner is the way anymore.
The increase in portability I feel personally is purely from the decrease in screen size which naturally lowers the dimensions and weight of the device considerably, but some of these are getting so thin that they are actually uncomfortable, I don't want to hold a blade, or a brick, give me a thing (but not a blade like thin) laptop with a 11 inch screen for on the go work, make it cool, quiet, and perform, and make it like an inch thick, then knock it from $1,000 to $500. I'll buy it everytime.
I feel the same way about phones, I don't want my next one to be thinner, or have a bigger screen.
5 inches fits my hand perfectly, I don't work or game on it. I use it to pass time reading Anandtech or communicating with the world.
I game at home on my SFF that I can easily take to a lan party, or I work on my portable but not paper thin laptop.
I'm happy in all regards honestly. But I suppose this just comes down to personal preference much like how nice peripherals are comes down to taste in the end barring any insufferable design choices.
"The problem with just making devices thicker and adding fans is that it compromises portability for only a little in extra performance." I think it's actually the contrary, if we talk about laptops/ultrabooks. There can be a big increase in performance for very little increase in thinkness and noise. My ultrabook has a 35w mobile second generation i7 that still performs better than any 4th gen i7 ULV CPUs, let alone Core M... And still it's thin, light and with 8 hours battery life. It is so silent that the fan won't kick in even when I do an OCR of a 10 page file... For tablets it's different, but still, my SP3 (i3) is thin and has a fan, that never kicks in... Only while gaming, and I am actually happy it does, cause this way there is no throttling.... I would want it to be fanless.... (as I wouldn't like the fan to kick in more often like in the i5 and especially i7 models).
> Atom sits at the lower price band ($50-$100 per chip), typically in a dual or quad core arrangement without hyperthreading and uses ‘modules’ of two discrete cores sharing an L2 cache.
More like $107-$161 going by your previous "Braswell" article.
What I'd like to see is how does the $281 Core-M compare to the ~$100 Haswell Celeron from the previous generation in terms of performance.
Is there a review of the Dell Venue Pro 7000 coming up?
In Europe, that tablet is priced similarly to the non-Pro Surface 3, so it would be interesting to make a comparison between a Core M and a Cherry Trail X7 device in a similar form factor regarding performance and battery life.
It seems to me that the issue with the Yoga isn't poor cooling per se, but the inexplicable decision to have a target CPU temp of 65 degrees under load. If they allowed it to go up to 90 as the other devices do, it would almost certainly be the best performer.
I would prefer it the way it is. Maybe it would be good if the user could decide by switching power plans. Not sure how it works. But generally I would not do much work that requires sustained performance on such a hybrid yoga. It is good for bursty workloads and stays cool even on high load flash website like a twitch high resolution stream (which heats my 15" MBP quite a bit). If it gets the work done while being cool to touch it is better. If you put it on a table it can be quite hot as long as the keyboard is reasonably cool. But pick it up and use it actually on your lap in normal or tablet mode, that 65C temp limit is a godsend.
It theory that should be in the windows power plan so one can just switch it to something else when performance means more than cool operation. I think in such a notebook performance should take a back seat.
A long for this look at the performance Core M. Thanks. Like all nice, popular movies the end is pretty expected after a review from the Asus UX305. It's also good that the Dell is there to provide the scores for no limitation on cooling for long continuous loads.
After all this, I don't see any problem. The performance of the Asus is pretty expected as well having a tradional notebook design which is fairly overkill for the SDP/TDP.
I was a PC overclocker many years ago and then realized that underclocking and overclocking at the same time would be ideal. I believe the race to wider CPU dynamic range has become mainstream.
The temperature x time graphs are all messed up. The lines goes "back" on many ocasions, indicating 2 different temperatures on a same time stamp. You should check the settings on whatever program you are using to generate these graphics.
I just signed up to comment on the same thing -- the graphs are so clearly distorted by some (no doubt well-intentioned) spline/smoothing that much (even most?) of the data we see here may be the product of a spline or interpolation process, and not represent a data measurement. Where the line goes "back", as DryAir pointed out, it implies time travel.
That's a very big miss for a site that I've considered to be thoughtful and authoritative. The approach you took here presents false and interpolated data and obscures the quality of your research. Don't let the goal of an attractive graph ruin the whole point of the graph: showing the data.
These graphs are obviously impossible due to the spline/interpolation used, and should be replaced by a scatter plot or normal line graph.
As I mentioned on the Devices and Test page, sometimes the devices were very heavily loaded and they were not able to log consistently. Sometimes they would log twice in the same second, but with slightly different values. One log would be time 0:00:01:05, and another would log 0:00:01:95 (for instance), but both would be truncated to the same second. Unfortunately that's just the limit of the software, since it only logs time to the nearest second. A second can be a lot of time for a CPU.
That's fine because those data points represent measurements.
The problem here is you've used interpolated splines/curves which, in this case, actually show impossible or false information: the curve leaning "left" implies that the x-axis (time) is decreasing: that's time travel, and it'd be a bigger story than the Core M for sure, right?
Also recognize that if you're gathering data points, but drawing a line, you're always implicitly creating an interpolation between those points (at least in viewers minds). Usually, it doesn't matter so much. Here, the resulting lines are false, and I think Anandtech is a better publication than that.
As it stands, the interpolation/smoothing on your graphs implies time travel. Respectfully: please correct this (or, patent the relevant technology and profit!). If you're going to make your graphs look "pretty" and don't care if they're correct, I can't trust your results.
Sarcastic time travel jokes aside, I agree that you should change it somehow. Perhaps just change the data points to be connected to a straith line, instead of a smoothed one. Right now its looking very amateuristic, not matching an otherwise great and highly technical review.
Ice Storm was the worst offender so I've re-generated the graphs with straight lines. There just was not enough data points on that one because it was so short.
I am furious that OEMs are using Core M in ultrabooks. It is the solution to a problem which does not exist. The Samsung Series 9 / ATIV 9 Plus use full fat i5 and i7 ULVs and the 2 tiny fans hardly ever come on. when they do, they sound like mice whispering. and huge battery life.
Core M is not progress when used in the ultrabook factor. it is a step backwards and a ripoff.
Core M is expensive for what it does. If you want mobility without a fan, go with Atom. If you want better unthrottled performance, go with the U models.
It's the weird throttling and poor OEM thermal designs which concern me. Core M may have good turbo speeds but that's useless if it has to throttle down quickly from heat soak. Users will be disappointed when their machines act speedy one moment and start lagging the next, no matter what the design turbo speeds are.
Can't edit comments, sigh. Anyway, my Bay Trail Atom tablet runs from 600 MHz to 1.86 GHz and has no issues with thermal throttling. It can smoothly turbo and then clock down without dropping down too far and sacrificing usability.
It seems some OEMs like Lenovo set a total system power draw limit that's too low, on top of skin thermal limits. The CPU can only turbo for very short periods of time before being dropped to base speed or even lower. You're then stuck with a 1 GHz CPU and 100 MHz GPU which you paid a ton of money for. I think the problem lies with both sloppy engineering from OEMs and unrealistic promises made by Intel.
I have a Bay Trail Atom (Venue Pro 11) and it's alright but I definitely need more speed. Trying to stream sports games through their Metro apps will often skip and this doesn't happen on my higher performance devices. Also it has some inexplicable pauses here and there. More speed would be great.
I think you are missing the fact that even throttled Broadwell is a lot faster than Silvermont cores. I don't have the T100 in the notebook bench (it is a tablet) but the HP Stream has two Silvermont cores and a 7.5 watt TDP http://anandtech.com/bench/product/1449?vs=1400
I really like this article, but I wish you had run GFXBench, which is more of a pure GPU test. I want to compare the results to the iPad's A8X and Tegra K1.
All this testing, and, I don't see a single power system power draw number for anything. Maybe I'm missing something? But, woudn't seeing the i5 system draw 7-13 watts more be useful for determining how good Core M is?
If the product uses a third of the power and gets 50-100% of the performance... Well. That's very impressive.
Probably not great. I'm using the Venue 11 Pro 7140, and the 5Y10 is usually snappier than my old 14" Dell Latitude with a T8300 (2.4GHz 45nm Core 2 Duo). Some of it might also be the awful GM965 IGP.
thanks for the analysis, the new charts look very cool!
it's interesting to see a direct comparison, how the different form factors and cooling solutions affect performance and it's good to have a "bog standard" 5200u thrown in for good measure, too.
i'm still not a fan of having low power systems burdened with high resolution screens, especially if it screws with graphics benchmark scores as we see on some benchmarks, but mabe that's just me.
it would be interesting to have the new macbook thrown in for comparison too, as far that is/will be possible. i'd expect it to perform closer to the asus, albeit with more throttling due to the smaller chassis and higher turbo clocks. but maybe we will se more soon.
the low temperatures on the lenovo are an interesting and valid design choice, but it would also be good to have an optional high performance mode allowing higher temps for when you simply sit at a desk playing games or such.
i also heard that there are ux305 variants coming out with different core-m SKUs, so it might even be possible to further investigate the boundaries of asus' cooling solution.
so all in all, while performance seems adequate for most day to day tasks, the only thing i'm still disappointed in regards to core m is efficiency/battery life. imho, this goes to show that core m is nothing else than a smaller, more constrained core i, with a lower TDP to allow for slimmer, fanless mobile designs. for me that means i'm still preferring a "full blown" 15w ULV, simply to keep performance on a slightly higher, more consistent and more future proof level, even if it adds a couple millimeters to the thickness and a couple grams to the weight.
The thing with battery life is that the U stuff has such low idle power states etc that there really isn't anything much to gain there. Especially as super thing means less battery.
It has to be understood that these are essentially first generation products. Two years from now, they will make the ones tested today seem somewhat pokey. And two years after that...
So based on the benchmarks of X1 here (58448 vs. Intel above 49619): http://www.anandtech.com/show/8811/nvidia-tegra-x1... Intel's 14nm can't catch NV's 20nm X1 on the gpu side, and it's about to go 14nm samsung process in time for xmas devices (should up clocks on gpu, and denver back in perhaps tweaked for cpu side). This isn't good for Intel. I suspect they'll continue to lose 4.1B a year, or give up the portion of the market they bought with that 4.1B loss for the last few years each ;)
As gpu perf requirements amp up on mobile, I don't see Intel taking down ARM's side (qcom,samsung,nv, arm themselves etc). The cpu side will be good enough rev after rev on arm (A72's coming 1.9x A57's) and at some point have a full PC like box, massive PC style heatsink/fan, 16GB-32GB (google has to polish the 64bit OS more before there is a point to doing this), discrete gpu for top end, and pure amped up soc (with gpu, running ~20-80w or so like Intel's lineup) to cabbage up the low-end laptop/pc market. Intel profits will be going down soon if they don't buy NV to take out the fab/arm march that is coming up the chain slowly but surely. It would seem the only way to gun down arm at this point is to figure out a way to buy NV and produce a better ARM soc than anyone on arm's side can with the help of Intel's process (then their fabs would matter again, at least for a while if not forever far longer). Intel can't count on process to beat the enemy now. As they race to 10nm so is TSMC etc. Even if they always are one behind for a while as you can see above Intel isn't winning. Both i5's gpu and CoreM's gpu get smacked around even on 14nm vs. 20nm.
The core pro-app market is a different story, but that's the last part that gets assaulted at the top. Games first, then come the apps once a PC like box is out and has massive numbers to be worth making full pc apps, then pro apps over there etc. Google is surely working as fast as they can on the software side (64bit OS polish, more features etc probably coming Nov with devices), but it seems the hardware will already be ready for the next move to a PC type box when google+AEP etc/advanced unreal 4/unity5 etc games get there. We'll see how far NV gets with the 40w console shortly (the first small salvo I guess with semi-good gaming ability). They also have an updated handheld with X1 coming too, and I hope they update it again with 14nm at xmas or just after. I'll wait for 13in or larger 14nm NV chip for my tablet needs (training vids, and a side of games out to tv). I might buy the handheld x1 update though. I have zero interest in vita/3ds stuff.
One more point, if NV wins the suit against samsung, qcom etc, the rest will fold (or get sued too) and use NV IP which will make everyone have NV like scores on gpu. Again, Intel's best move is to buy NVDA. They'd be suing everyone then and could hold NV's IP back from all the rest or license it at higher fees etc, many ways to do damage owning NV. If win10 is really coming for ARM's side, and brings DX12 with it (kind of have to, to fight off Vulkan/android/iOS/linux/steamos jeez long list) then Intel is even in worse trouble. If they leave out DX 12 (really stupid with fully capable gpus over there, in NV's case maxwell!), I don't see the point for MS as they have to defend against android/vulkan and the rest of the gang I mentioned. MS must embrace ARM fully or Wintel is just headed down as the dominant player (OS share overall already dropping vs. arm's side totals). They'll both survive without the Wintel big stick to push around, but things are definitely changing quickly. Intel losing 4.1B just to sell something on mobile, doesn't lie. Mobile gaming is growing quickly, and it isn't running windows. etc...
Much as I don't bother with ARM vs Intel debates, I agree with the main points here. Intel can't keep throwing away billions trying to catch up in mobile, especially when desktop and laptop sales are falling. People regularly buy new phones and tablets, PCs not so much. I find that for typical daily computing like web surfing, doing email and handling simple documents, any decent tablet or phablet will do. My laptop has been relegated to a desktop while my Android phablet and cheap Atom Windows tablet travel with me.
ARM vs Intel now doesn't matter as much as before as long as good apps are available on whatever platform you choose. With the rise of cloud storage and services, your underlying OS and processor architecture matter even less. Not a good time for Intel after being in the lead for so long.
That pro-app market will be Intel's last refuge, especially when x86 compatibility is needed. As for the rest, Atoms and ARM SOCs are getting good enough for general purpose computing. It'll be a race to the bottom then... I don't think Intel can maintain its current margins and structure in that environment.
I don't mean to throw a wrench in your whole argument, but your initial numbers are incorrect. The X1 benchmark is showing the Ice Storm Unlimited *Graphics* score, and you are comparing it to the Intel *Overall* score. Easy mistake to make of course since you don't run these benchmarks all day like some.
Anyway the Yoga 3 Pro (which you are quoting for Intel) achieved a 59405 Graphics score in that benchmark. The overall score combines the Graphics score with the Physics score (which was 31473 on the Yoga 3 Pro). I don't have the Tegra X1 Physics or Overall scores since that was a preview unit. The top ARM score on the Physics test was the NVIDIA Shield Tablet at 20437.
The NVIDIA tablet is also the highest scoring ARM on 3DMark Ice Storm Unlimited Overall with 36688.
But that's just one benchmark, and a very short one at that.
I don't really understand, why don't the manufacturers put a little bigger heatsink with a FAN of bigger diameter into these portable devices, is it such a problem??? Production costs reduction or bad engineering? I think it would be also possible to keep the same weight if they cut some bulk mass from somewhere else of the device. Simply this throttling is not acceptable for me and an i7 should not have lower performance than i5 in sustained load...This is very very sad for us consumers, like how the manufacturers skimp us ! ! !
I'm very interested in this, though, after reading the whole article: I noticed the Asus laptop with the metal chassis was the one with the 5Y10, and the two devices that are usable as a tablet/is a tablet are the two devices with the 5Y71. However, I know that the Venue 11 Pro comes with a 5Y10 for its base configuration, so it would be interesting to see how that 5Y10 version compares vs the 5Y71 version, knowing it is thermally handicapped compared to the Lenovo, with its fan, and the Asus, which is a laptop with a metal chassis.
I was originally eyeing the Venue 11 Pro, but I jumped on the preorders of the less powerful but still capable Surface 3 with the new Atom SoC. I'm really intrigued by Core M, but all these stories of throttling and whatnot are keeping me away for now.
Intel has a decent mobile chip with Atom. Core M, not so much. I would rather have a slower Atom chip that costs a lot less and can turbo for long periods than a Core M with much higher performance that isn't accessible to the user thanks to constant throttling. Maybe there should be a caveat on Core M devices like "2.4 GHz processor (for 10 seconds only), base 1 GHz". That way consumers know what they're really in for.
Is 2.6GHz the maximum turbo speed for M-5Y71 for 2 cores, judging from the graph? Cannot find that info anywhere and some even stated the maximum 2.9GHz is for both cores!
I like the Sony Vaio Z approach - balls the walls hardware, fast processing power, fast storage, fast video and LIGHT. Still lighter than most laptops 5 years later and faster than many of them too! Battery power wasn't great but it had an easy to replace battery.
I own a Lenovo yoga 3 pro. Can I configure the SoC temperature from 65°C to a higher value? I use the device as a "desktop" more often then a tablet and would love to get more juice from my machine even at the expense of the device "overheating" a little bit.
These processors are perfectly decent. But at the same time, really novel due to the fact that no active cooling is required to run them. This in my view is a positive progression in CPUs together with the SoC philosophy. To have everything integrated into a smaller space. Many users might complain about performance but I bet they don't use their i5 or i7 machines to the fullest potential either. Core-M performance is perfectly decent. Granted, the only slow downs I have experienced is when compiling a Linux kernel say or running multiple FHD videos. But such tasks are run on a less than regular basis so a slight slow down in speed during these exercises is acceptable. The rest of the tasks get carried out very well in a thin, light and quiet design.
I know many will disagree with me, but I am a regular user and I hate when my Venue 11 Pro 7140 (5Y10, 64 Gb, 04 Gb RAM) is heated so much that I can not put my right hand in it, that temperature is unbearable from 55 ° C upwards. Should not rise beyond what your skin can handle. This happens pretty and very quickly, then to lower spend enough time. I'm thinking let go of it and look for an alternative. I wanted a balanced team between productivity and way of life, but these temperature rises disenchanted me and the only thing that bothers me because it is fast and has no crashes or anything like that.
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serendip - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Maybe Intel made too many compromises and OEMs reached too far with their designs. On one hand a fast race to sleep is good, yet on the other hand, I'd rather be a slow and steady tortoise who finishes the race than a hare that turbos and sleeps frequently to prevent overheating. Device buyers don't care about TDP or poorly set skin temperature limits, they'll just swear off Core M products that give them throttled 600 MHz speeds instead of full power.boblozano - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Good point, though I tend to think it'll depend on the use cases. I went back to separate desktop(s) / laptop (rather than a single, uber-laptop) about a year ago. Consequently the laptop can be optimized for size / weight / mobility, for which a core-m device is helpful.jospoortvliet - Thursday, April 9, 2015 - link
Exactly the same here. I will do my video and image editing on my quad-core desktop anyway, so a core M is perfect: I need portability and battery life in a laptop, not raw performance. Intel made just the right chip for a customer like me here. Too bad that on the desktop side, where I would love an affordable six or eight core with a high tdp, they fail me.girishp - Monday, April 13, 2015 - link
I tried doing the same thing, but portability quickly triumphs any advantage of a powerful desktop, especially when a good powerful laptop can do most of what I need. I bought the 2nd gen Mac Book Air for my wife and it was good for her basic multimedia requirements (Photoshop, Final Cut Pro, etc.), but the latest Mac Book just isn't powerful enough for any of her needs.MrSpadge - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Turbo gives the system increased responsiveness under bursty loads, i.e. most everyday workloads. There's no good reason not to use the performance available and be a tortoise voluntarily. When the load is sustained over longer periods, Turbo automatically throttles back to what ever limit the OEM has set. Had you choosen the tortoise mode, you would have started at this point. With Turbo you don't loose any performance compared to this scenario, it just makes you reach the limit quicker. Turbo also autoamtically factors in things like "how many cores are loaded", "how stresful is this program in reality", "how good is the device cooling" and "how hot is the ambient" by simply measuring them empirically (power consumption & temperature). In fixed tortoise mode you'd have to predict all of them and assume the worst case, just like Intel & AMD did for the first dual and quad cores with low fixed frequencies.If Turbo results in "turbos and sleeps frequently to prevent overheating" it is simply set up badly, significantly worse than Turbo on Intel Desktop CPUs since a few years. Instead of sleeping to avoid overheating the turbo bin must gradually be lowered until a good steady state is reached.
MrSpadge - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Forgot to add: it would be really nice if there was a simple user control for their current preference of maximum performance vs. tolerated temperature. Win allows limiting a CPUs maximum performance state, but most users will never find this option in the advanced energy settings. A simple slider as a sidebar-like gadget could work well. Not only for Core-M, but also for regular laptops and desktops. Add one slider for each discrete GPU's power target.mkozakewich - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Also, MS removed that option in all their PCs with connected standby. You can still enable it through the registry, but regular users are even less likely to make use of that option. We need some sane defaults set so we can have separate "Low Power", "Balanced" and "Overdrive" modes. We won't care about skin temperature if we've chosen to use that temperature briefly and we have an option to turn it back down.soccerballtux - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
the biggest problem is Windows packaging in tons of storage indexing that runs every time you log in, or letting services run around in the background and datamine (Facebook, Amazon Music re-scans every 10 minutes-- I mean seriously? might as sell me a phone with 100MB less of RAM if you're going to do that)The_Assimilator - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Because it's obviously Windows' fault that it runs services that you told it to install.lilmoe - Thursday, April 9, 2015 - link
+1seapeople - Thursday, April 9, 2015 - link
Won't an over-aggressive turbo actually decrease performance? Processors are generally less power efficient at higher clock speeds, i.e., running at 3GHz is twice as fast as 1.5GHz but generally uses more than 2x the power, and thus more than 2x the heat.In this case, therefore, a processor that races to 3GHz will quickly (and less efficiently) use up its thermal headroom and have to throttle back moreso than a processor that stayed at 2GHz.
It's like a footrace - if the race is 100m long, you're going to finish fastest if you go all out. However, if the race is a mile long, then the guy who starts off sprinting is going to be sputtering along a quarter of the way into the race as the joggers pass him up.
MrSpadge - Friday, April 10, 2015 - link
You are right that with agressive Turbo the chip is running in a less power efficient state initially and will have to throttle a bit earlier than a slower, steadily running chip. but if we're talking about low performance under sustained loads, this doesn't matter: it affects the first few seconds, or 10's of seconds at most, whereas in the following minutes both systems are running at the same power efficient throttled speed, which is basically determined by the system cooling. It's not like the sprinter who's completely exhausted and can't recover.retrospooty - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
I dont think its really all that complicated... If you are looking for raw performance, Core M isnt for you. It is really for low power devices that do basic stuff like browsing, email etc. For that purpose, its one hell of a CPU. That performance level at 4.5 watts is a hefty accomplishment IMOYuLeven - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
I do development on a Core M machine. Instead of carrying 4 pounds of computing power on my back, I let a cloud based development box do the heavy lifting. The plume light Core M notebook is used basically to write the code and give orders to the Dev box. IMHO opinion a far better setup than having scoliosis for the sake of running code locally.mkozakewich - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
It's not for web browsing. That's what Atom is for. A Core-M device is good for all regular core tasks except sustained graphics tasks. I wouldn't get one to game, but it'll be great for anything else.retrospooty - Thursday, April 9, 2015 - link
That is pretty much exactly what am saying. Basic use, core M is fine. Not for high performance requirements.nathanddrews - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
They have taken the exact opposite approach to their SSD design, where they try very hard to offer constant and consistent performance.xthetenth - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Both make sense from the perspective of increasing perceived speed. With storage, it hanging and being slow is the biggest way it can impact the feel of the device, while processors that trade finishing short tasks much faster for a tiny decrease in how fast they complete long tasks do a lot to achieve a responsive feel.xthetenth - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Device buyers don't buy devices to get a higher average frequency, they buy things to do what they want without the device holding them up. Look at the benchmarks where the ASUS holds higher average frequencies but the Yoga's higher maximum frequency means it completes tasks faster, and it performs better in the benchmark. That sort of responsiveness is what turbo is for. The time to complete long tasks isn't going to be materially changed but the time to complete short tasks is going to be reduced significantly if the processor can use a quick burst like turbo allows.I'm also pretty sure that most users consider not getting burned by their device a good thing that should continue, incidentally.
StormyParis - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
That's not a real use case though. Real use case is load a page (low CPU), render page (high CPU) read page (low CPU). I don't care how fast my CPU is idling while I'm reading the page, I do care how fast the page renders. It'd be different if I were running simulations.. that's what desktop CPUs are for.maxxbot - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
If the device buyer's choice is between the Core M and an ARM or Atom they're going to go with the Core M because it's faster in every aspect, especially burst performance. If the Core M in unacceptable slow for you then there aren't any other options at the 4.5W TDP level to turn to, it's the best currently available.name99 - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
That ("Maybe Intel made too many compromises") seems like the wrong lesson.I think a better lesson is that the Clayton Christensen wheel of reincarnation has turned yet again.
There was a time more than 40 years ago when creating a computer was a demanding enough exercise that the only companies that could do it well were integrated top to bottom, forced to do everything from designing the CPU to the OS to the languages that ran on it.
The PC exploded this model as standardized interfaces allowed different vendors to supply the BIOS, the OS, the CPU, the motherboard, the storage, etc.
BUT as we push harder and harder against fundamental physics and what we want the devices to do, the abstractions of these "interfaces" start to impose serious costs. It's no longer good enough to just slap parts together and assume that the whole will work acceptably. We have seen this in mobile, with a gradual thinning out of the field there; but we're poised to see the same thing in PCs (at least in very mobile PCs which, sadly for the OEMs, is the most dynamic part of the business).
This also suggests that Apple's advantage is just going to keep climbing. Even as they use Intel chips like everyone else, they have a lot more control over the whole package, from precisely tweaked OS dynamics to exquisitely machined bodies that are that much more effective in heat dissipation. (And it gets even worse if they decide to switch to their own CPU+GPU SoC for OSX.)
It's interesting, in this context, where the higher frequency 1.2GHz part is difficult for some vendors to handle, to realize that Apple is offering a (Apple-only?) 1.3/2.9GHz option which, presumably, they believe they have embodied in a case that can handle its peak thermals and get useful work out of the extra speed boost.
HakkaH - Friday, April 10, 2015 - link
Device buyers don't even see beyond the price tag, brand name and looks. 90% of the people who buy tech are pretty oblivious on what they are buying. So they wouldn't even know if a device would throttle the speed at all.Secondly I'd rather have a device that throttles good which processors are doing the last couple of years than have a steady pace at which it just crawls along and maybe after 5 minutes decides... hey maybe I can add 200 MHz and still be okay. If that is your case I bet you still have the first generation smartphone in your pocket instead of a more recent model because they all aggressively throttle the CPU and GPU in order to keep you from throwing your phone out of your hands ;)
HP - Saturday, August 8, 2015 - link
Your description doesn't follow the usage paradigm of most computing tasks. As the user is actively using their device what they do on the machine roughly tracks the user's thought patterns which largely takes place in series. He doesn't batch the tasks in his head first and then execute them. So race to sleep is where it's at.milkod2001 - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
What about Intel's native 4 core mobile CPUs. Are any in the works?Core M,Y, U(2 core) etc might be OK for bloggers, content consumers etc but if one wants/needs real performance on the go, there's not that much new to offer, right?
nathanddrews - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
I think we'll have to settle for the i7-4700 until Skylake. Not a bad place to settle.kpkp - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
"Atom competed against high powered ARM SoCs and fit in that mini-PC/tablet to sub 10-inch 2-in-1 area either running Android, Windows RT or the full Windows 8.1 in many of the devices on the market."Atom in Windows RT? Wasn't RT ARM only?
Essence_of_War - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Very impressed by the Zenbook, especially at its price point.boblozano - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Thanks for the detailed article.In this space it's clear that the top design consideration is cooling - do that well, and everything else follows. Performance will be delivered by the SoC's ability to turbo as needed, power consumption by the SoC and the rest of the design.
Of course materials, size, the question of passive vs. active cooling ... all that also factors decisively into the success of a design, whether the target market actually buys the devices.
But the effectiveness of the cooling will largely determine performance.
Refuge - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
The efficiency of the cooling too. Can't have it take up too much space or too much power (If active and not passive)otherwise you leave either no room for your battery, or you drain it too fast keeping the thing cool (In the case of active)
jjj - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
You insist on only showing low power CPU results , because putting them properly in context would hurt sales right? God forbid you include laptops....And today somehow you decided to fully ignore AMD too.
Maybe stop working for Intel and serve your readers instead.
MrSpadge - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Dude.. WTF?This is an evaluation of what Core M is and what this means for devices using it. It's neither a comparison to other device and CPU classes, nor a general recommendation of this product.
Michael Bay - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
AMD just can`t afford a decent shill anymore.THIS is what they go these days.
xthetenth - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
I guess it's easy to confuse discussions of architectural details for devices that have already been reviewed on this very site with articles comparing those devices to other similar devices when the preexisting reviews contain many of the very comparisons you want.Dorek - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
"And today somehow you decided to fully ignore AMD too."Only because the market does.
Refuge - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
This article was never about comparing the CPU's to AMD or anyone. It was about explaining why we are getting awkward results across the board on the performance of these low TDP Intel parts.Nothing to do with AMD, or even the specific OEM's products either, so much as their construction and heat dissipation performance, but it was only in an effort to further explain the varying results of these low TDP Intel chips.
Pissedoffyouth - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Haha how does a 4.5w CPU for a laptop have anything to do with a 65w+ desktop CPU?Allan_Hundeboll - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
If he was working for intel he would have included amd's "lowpower" cpuname99 - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Yeah, it's ridiculous.Why isn't there also a comparison against a POWER8 --- that would DEMOLISH this silly little Broadwell-Y.
And they're going on about how great the power dissipation is? Compare it against an ARM M0 and look who has crazy low power dissipation then!
I demand that every future AnandTech review compare any CPU against every other other CPU in the known universe, no matter how irrelevant the comparison...
lilmoe - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
That price tag makes this the most confusing and out-of-place processor from Intel... Microsoft proved that Haswell-U can power an ultra-thin x86 tablet, have mobile SoC comparable battery life, and price it comparably or even lower than Core M products. All that with the added benefit of better performance...OEMs can take advantage of lower pricing on some Broadwell-U processors, and install a better/thinner active cooling solution with the savings. So where does that put Core M other than "luxury" devices that have no need for "real" performance advantages?
Not for me, thanks... Not at THAT price tag.
zepi - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Surface pro 3 is ~50% thicker than iPad Air 2, weights ~50% more, has active cooling and still has poorer performance than Surface Pro 2.From my point of view Surface pro 3 proves that Haswell-U can't power ultra-thin x86 tablets.
lilmoe - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Didn't know the iPad was an ultra-thin x86 tablet that replace your laptop. Good to know, thanks.I get that the iPad has a huge fan base, I really do. But would you guys please stop comparing it to real PCs in tablet form already??
zepi - Thursday, April 9, 2015 - link
Central argument proposed was that SP3 somehow proves that Haswell-U can power ultra-thin X86 tablets. There were no mentions about Windows or OSX compatibility in original statement.Keyword is Tablet. x86, ultra-thin etc. are describe terms. You don't need to go far and see that the statement is clearly false. Ultra-thin in context of tablets means these days that thickness of the device should to be somewhere around 6-7mm. SP3 is 9mm. I picked iPad Air 2, because it is the most well known of competitors. We could just as well use Dell Venue 8. Ipad thickness is 6.1 and Dell is 6mm thick. Later is even x86 and runs windows
Weight was another thing. Naturally comparing weight to Venue 8 makes very little sense since SP3 has over twice the total screen area of Venue 8 so I compare it with iPad air 2, which has the biggest screen area of the most well known tablets in the market. Most certainly, there are some less well known 12" models, but they are not widely spread and have hardly any market penetration.
I cannot see how SP3 would prove that 15w TDP allows for compact tablet designs. SP3 is already thermally limited and mostly proves to me that in order to reach smaller and thinner designs, lower power SOC's are necessary. From my point of view SP3 is full computer which offers decent (though arguably best in class) tablet usability in addition of being dockable general purpose PC-computer.
digiguy - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
come on, you change the comparison in the same sentence, SP3 is thinner and lighter than SP2, and has has higher res screen. As for ipad air, try to run Windows on it....Jaybus - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Or even if it ran OSX. The iPad is a giant iPhone. If it ran OSX, then we could compare it to SP3. For now, iPad can only be compared to Android tablets.xthetenth - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Being thicker than slower devices and slower than thicker devices only proves that it fits between them on a size/performance scale and does nothing to show that it's not a good device.ppi - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
My desktop is also thicker than iPaid Air2, weighs more, has active cooling and certainly eats more power. So ... ?You have to realize, that this 4.5W chip actually has performance that is in league with 15W chip. For many ultrabook/2-in-1 use cases ideal chip. And read the Yoga3 review, where on CPU-bound benchmarks, Core-M runs circles around A8X.
frozentundra123456 - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
I agree with some of the other posters. The problem is the price of these devices for the performance. I can see them for say business use, where the company is paying, use is light, and mobility is important (say for a sales rep who travels a lot), but otherwise, I cant see Joe Average Consumer paying north of 1000 for these when you can get similar perrformance for less in a 350.00 conventional laptop or less performance, but still decent in a 100 to 300 dollar atom device.xthetenth - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
The ASUS is in the 700 dollar range and avoids a great many other compromises cheaper devices would make. It fits into the price/quality scale very nicely.zepi - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
From gaming / usability perspective the average-results do not necessarily tell enough.Ie. does the usage experience of certain devices suffer because GPU / CPU throttles too much under certain loads?
Are the bottom 10% frametimes so horrendous on throttling devices that DOTA-gaming is practically out of question despite relatively small difference in average frame rates?
xilience - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Minor issue with one of the graphs. PCMark8 Home graph, the temperature scales are different for each device, whereas they look to be the same for all other tests. The numbers are correct, but when quickly comparing graphs it can be confusing to read. THANKS for this great article, it gives a lot of insight into mobile hardware design.digiguy - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Very interesting article. Core M makes sense (contrary to what some people say in the comments) for those that have the money and want a totally silent device.Having said that, some ultrabooks and core tablets (like my 35W TDP Asus ultrabook or my surface pro 3 i3) are extremely silent, with the fan kicking in only while gaming, which in my opinion is a small concession in exchange for sustained performance (zero throttling in either of the 2 devices).
Also the race to the thinnest device is probably questionable, especially for laptops. Making a smaller device with a bigger screen like Dell did is a great idea, making it thinner and thinner doesn't add much and subtracts performance or adds heat.
What a pity you didn't add the new Macbook to the comparison (probably not available yet). Hope you will do an updated version with it. It will also allow to see how 5y71 performs in a laptop, rather than in a convertible/tablet.
TEAMSWITCHER - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
The problem with just making devices thicker and adding fans is that it compromises portability for only a little in extra performance.For nearly a decade, I carried around a 15" PowerBook or MacBook Pro. Good machines but only mid-range graphic performance. Recently, I slimmed down to an 11" MacBook Air, and I will never...ever...go back to lugging around a larger device.
I also have a desktop Windows Workstation for performance oriented work. It's much faster than any laptop you can buy. Using Drop Box and One Drive I keep files synced between the two machines, and can just hop-up from my Workstation, grab my Mac Book, and hit the door.
Thankfully, my computer budget is large enough to afford a Workstation and a Mac Book - it's actually a necessity for cross-platform developers. I get extreme performance from my workstation and extreme portability from my Mac Book. I don't have to live with compromises, I just have to switch devices.
Refuge - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
I'm all for small form factors and portability, I notice the difference between my 15 inch laptop and my girlfriends 10 inch convertable. It is substantial, but I don't feel that going thinner is the way anymore.The increase in portability I feel personally is purely from the decrease in screen size which naturally lowers the dimensions and weight of the device considerably, but some of these are getting so thin that they are actually uncomfortable, I don't want to hold a blade, or a brick, give me a thing (but not a blade like thin) laptop with a 11 inch screen for on the go work, make it cool, quiet, and perform, and make it like an inch thick, then knock it from $1,000 to $500. I'll buy it everytime.
I feel the same way about phones, I don't want my next one to be thinner, or have a bigger screen.
5 inches fits my hand perfectly, I don't work or game on it. I use it to pass time reading Anandtech or communicating with the world.
I game at home on my SFF that I can easily take to a lan party, or I work on my portable but not paper thin laptop.
I'm happy in all regards honestly. But I suppose this just comes down to personal preference much like how nice peripherals are comes down to taste in the end barring any insufferable design choices.
wallysb01 - Thursday, April 9, 2015 - link
"5 inches fits my hand perfectly"That's what she said.
digiguy - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
"The problem with just making devices thicker and adding fans is that it compromises portability for only a little in extra performance."I think it's actually the contrary, if we talk about laptops/ultrabooks. There can be a big increase in performance for very little increase in thinkness and noise. My ultrabook has a 35w mobile second generation i7 that still performs better than any 4th gen i7 ULV CPUs, let alone Core M... And still it's thin, light and with 8 hours battery life. It is so silent that the fan won't kick in even when I do an OCR of a 10 page file...
For tablets it's different, but still, my SP3 (i3) is thin and has a fan, that never kicks in... Only while gaming, and I am actually happy it does, cause this way there is no throttling.... I would want it to be fanless.... (as I wouldn't like the fan to kick in more often like in the i5 and especially i7 models).
digiguy - Thursday, April 9, 2015 - link
Sorry in the last sentence I meant "I wouldN'T want it to be fanless"Krysto - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
> Atom sits at the lower price band ($50-$100 per chip), typically in a dual or quad core arrangement without hyperthreading and uses ‘modules’ of two discrete cores sharing an L2 cache.More like $107-$161 going by your previous "Braswell" article.
What I'd like to see is how does the $281 Core-M compare to the ~$100 Haswell Celeron from the previous generation in terms of performance.
smilingcrow - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Brawell is a different market sector though so pricing may not be comparable.kyuu - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
He was referring to mobile atoms (the ones that compare directly to Core M). Braswell is a different market segment, as smilingcrow said.wintermute000 - Friday, April 10, 2015 - link
I actually want to see comparisons with desktops (esp older ones like Sandy era)ToTTenTranz - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Is there a review of the Dell Venue Pro 7000 coming up?In Europe, that tablet is priced similarly to the non-Pro Surface 3, so it would be interesting to make a comparison between a Core M and a Cherry Trail X7 device in a similar form factor regarding performance and battery life.
Brett Howse - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Yes.Daishi83 - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
How about the T300 Chi? Preferably with FHD displayBrett Howse - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
I'm but one man, but it is on my radar.kyuu - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
It seems to me that the issue with the Yoga isn't poor cooling per se, but the inexplicable decision to have a target CPU temp of 65 degrees under load. If they allowed it to go up to 90 as the other devices do, it would almost certainly be the best performer.dusk007 - Thursday, April 9, 2015 - link
I would prefer it the way it is. Maybe it would be good if the user could decide by switching power plans. Not sure how it works.But generally I would not do much work that requires sustained performance on such a hybrid yoga. It is good for bursty workloads and stays cool even on high load flash website like a twitch high resolution stream (which heats my 15" MBP quite a bit). If it gets the work done while being cool to touch it is better. If you put it on a table it can be quite hot as long as the keyboard is reasonably cool. But pick it up and use it actually on your lap in normal or tablet mode, that 65C temp limit is a godsend.
It theory that should be in the windows power plan so one can just switch it to something else when performance means more than cool operation. I think in such a notebook performance should take a back seat.
vegemeister - Friday, April 10, 2015 - link
Increasing the max temperature wouldn't make it run any hotter unless you actually needed the performance.tsk2k - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Good read. I'm curious to see whether skylake core M improves much over this when it launches later this year.Crunchy005 - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Performance gains between archs in the same TDP...I feel between 1-5%? Haven't seen any huge performance gains in a long time just minor improvements.zodiacfml - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
A long for this look at the performance Core M. Thanks. Like all nice, popular movies the end is pretty expected after a review from the Asus UX305. It's also good that the Dell is there to provide the scores for no limitation on cooling for long continuous loads.After all this, I don't see any problem. The performance of the Asus is pretty expected as well having a tradional notebook design which is fairly overkill for the SDP/TDP.
I was a PC overclocker many years ago and then realized that underclocking and overclocking at the same time would be ideal. I believe the race to wider CPU dynamic range has become mainstream.
dragonsqrrl - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
"Each model comes with 4MB of L2 cache" On the first page.Shouldn't that be L3 cache?
dananski - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
I love how the Asus tries to draw a piano keyboard in the PCMark 8 Creative graph. Very creative of it.DryAir - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
The temperature x time graphs are all messed up. The lines goes "back" on many ocasions, indicating 2 different temperatures on a same time stamp. You should check the settings on whatever program you are using to generate these graphics.be_prime - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
I just signed up to comment on the same thing -- the graphs are so clearly distorted by some (no doubt well-intentioned) spline/smoothing that much (even most?) of the data we see here may be the product of a spline or interpolation process, and not represent a data measurement. Where the line goes "back", as DryAir pointed out, it implies time travel.That's a very big miss for a site that I've considered to be thoughtful and authoritative. The approach you took here presents false and interpolated data and obscures the quality of your research. Don't let the goal of an attractive graph ruin the whole point of the graph: showing the data.
These graphs are obviously impossible due to the spline/interpolation used, and should be replaced by a scatter plot or normal line graph.
Brett Howse - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
As I mentioned on the Devices and Test page, sometimes the devices were very heavily loaded and they were not able to log consistently. Sometimes they would log twice in the same second, but with slightly different values. One log would be time 0:00:01:05, and another would log 0:00:01:95 (for instance), but both would be truncated to the same second. Unfortunately that's just the limit of the software, since it only logs time to the nearest second. A second can be a lot of time for a CPU.be_prime - Thursday, April 9, 2015 - link
That's fine because those data points represent measurements.The problem here is you've used interpolated splines/curves which, in this case, actually show impossible or false information: the curve leaning "left" implies that the x-axis (time) is decreasing: that's time travel, and it'd be a bigger story than the Core M for sure, right?
Also recognize that if you're gathering data points, but drawing a line, you're always implicitly creating an interpolation between those points (at least in viewers minds). Usually, it doesn't matter so much. Here, the resulting lines are false, and I think Anandtech is a better publication than that.
As it stands, the interpolation/smoothing on your graphs implies time travel. Respectfully: please correct this (or, patent the relevant technology and profit!). If you're going to make your graphs look "pretty" and don't care if they're correct, I can't trust your results.
DryAir - Friday, April 10, 2015 - link
Sarcastic time travel jokes aside, I agree that you should change it somehow. Perhaps just change the data points to be connected to a straith line, instead of a smoothed one. Right now its looking very amateuristic, not matching an otherwise great and highly technical review.Brett Howse - Friday, April 10, 2015 - link
Ice Storm was the worst offender so I've re-generated the graphs with straight lines. There just was not enough data points on that one because it was so short.gw74 - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
I am furious that OEMs are using Core M in ultrabooks. It is the solution to a problem which does not exist. The Samsung Series 9 / ATIV 9 Plus use full fat i5 and i7 ULVs and the 2 tiny fans hardly ever come on. when they do, they sound like mice whispering. and huge battery life.Core M is not progress when used in the ultrabook factor. it is a step backwards and a ripoff.
serendip - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Core M is expensive for what it does. If you want mobility without a fan, go with Atom. If you want better unthrottled performance, go with the U models.It's the weird throttling and poor OEM thermal designs which concern me. Core M may have good turbo speeds but that's useless if it has to throttle down quickly from heat soak. Users will be disappointed when their machines act speedy one moment and start lagging the next, no matter what the design turbo speeds are.
serendip - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Can't edit comments, sigh. Anyway, my Bay Trail Atom tablet runs from 600 MHz to 1.86 GHz and has no issues with thermal throttling. It can smoothly turbo and then clock down without dropping down too far and sacrificing usability.It seems some OEMs like Lenovo set a total system power draw limit that's too low, on top of skin thermal limits. The CPU can only turbo for very short periods of time before being dropped to base speed or even lower. You're then stuck with a 1 GHz CPU and 100 MHz GPU which you paid a ton of money for. I think the problem lies with both sloppy engineering from OEMs and unrealistic promises made by Intel.
nonoverclock - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
I have a Bay Trail Atom (Venue Pro 11) and it's alright but I definitely need more speed. Trying to stream sports games through their Metro apps will often skip and this doesn't happen on my higher performance devices. Also it has some inexplicable pauses here and there. More speed would be great.Brett Howse - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
I think you are missing the fact that even throttled Broadwell is a lot faster than Silvermont cores. I don't have the T100 in the notebook bench (it is a tablet) but the HP Stream has two Silvermont cores and a 7.5 watt TDP http://anandtech.com/bench/product/1449?vs=1400If you want to compare to quad-core Bay Trail some of the scores are here http://anandtech.com/show/7428/asus-transformer-bo...
Bay Trail was a big boost for Atom but I would take Core M in a mobile device over it any day.
Pissedoffyouth - Thursday, April 9, 2015 - link
My bay trail Asus T100 never throttles back from 1.8ghz even under prime95+furmark. very power efficientsonicmerlin - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
I really like this article, but I wish you had run GFXBench, which is more of a pure GPU test. I want to compare the results to the iPad's A8X and Tegra K1.Brett Howse - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
I have discussed this in the actual device reviews. This article wasn't about that kind of comparison so I will ask you to go to the review http://anandtech.com/show/9104/asus-zenbook-ux305-...testbug00 - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
All this testing, and, I don't see a single power system power draw number for anything. Maybe I'm missing something? But, woudn't seeing the i5 system draw 7-13 watts more be useful for determining how good Core M is?If the product uses a third of the power and gets 50-100% of the performance... Well. That's very impressive.
Alexvrb - Wednesday, April 8, 2015 - link
Do you like phystics? Do you like phystics in your mouth? (typo on page 2!)Brett Howse - Thursday, April 9, 2015 - link
TYVM :)jabber - Thursday, April 9, 2015 - link
Be intrigued to know how these M chips stack up against my old CULV 1.3GHz SU7300. That benched as good as a old Pentium D 2.8Ghz back in 2009.Still using it as my main work laptop. Mainly just for configuring routers or downloading stuff on site.
fuzzymath10 - Thursday, April 9, 2015 - link
Probably not great. I'm using the Venue 11 Pro 7140, and the 5Y10 is usually snappier than my old 14" Dell Latitude with a T8300 (2.4GHz 45nm Core 2 Duo). Some of it might also be the awful GM965 IGP.fokka - Thursday, April 9, 2015 - link
thanks for the analysis, the new charts look very cool!it's interesting to see a direct comparison, how the different form factors and cooling solutions affect performance and it's good to have a "bog standard" 5200u thrown in for good measure, too.
i'm still not a fan of having low power systems burdened with high resolution screens, especially if it screws with graphics benchmark scores as we see on some benchmarks, but mabe that's just me.
it would be interesting to have the new macbook thrown in for comparison too, as far that is/will be possible. i'd expect it to perform closer to the asus, albeit with more throttling due to the smaller chassis and higher turbo clocks. but maybe we will se more soon.
the low temperatures on the lenovo are an interesting and valid design choice, but it would also be good to have an optional high performance mode allowing higher temps for when you simply sit at a desk playing games or such.
i also heard that there are ux305 variants coming out with different core-m SKUs, so it might even be possible to further investigate the boundaries of asus' cooling solution.
so all in all, while performance seems adequate for most day to day tasks, the only thing i'm still disappointed in regards to core m is efficiency/battery life. imho, this goes to show that core m is nothing else than a smaller, more constrained core i, with a lower TDP to allow for slimmer, fanless mobile designs.
for me that means i'm still preferring a "full blown" 15w ULV, simply to keep performance on a slightly higher, more consistent and more future proof level, even if it adds a couple millimeters to the thickness and a couple grams to the weight.
Qwertilot - Thursday, April 9, 2015 - link
The thing with battery life is that the U stuff has such low idle power states etc that there really isn't anything much to gain there. Especially as super thing means less battery.melgross - Thursday, April 9, 2015 - link
It has to be understood that these are essentially first generation products. Two years from now, they will make the ones tested today seem somewhat pokey. And two years after that...TheJian - Friday, April 10, 2015 - link
So based on the benchmarks of X1 here (58448 vs. Intel above 49619):http://www.anandtech.com/show/8811/nvidia-tegra-x1...
Intel's 14nm can't catch NV's 20nm X1 on the gpu side, and it's about to go 14nm samsung process in time for xmas devices (should up clocks on gpu, and denver back in perhaps tweaked for cpu side). This isn't good for Intel. I suspect they'll continue to lose 4.1B a year, or give up the portion of the market they bought with that 4.1B loss for the last few years each ;)
As gpu perf requirements amp up on mobile, I don't see Intel taking down ARM's side (qcom,samsung,nv, arm themselves etc). The cpu side will be good enough rev after rev on arm (A72's coming 1.9x A57's) and at some point have a full PC like box, massive PC style heatsink/fan, 16GB-32GB (google has to polish the 64bit OS more before there is a point to doing this), discrete gpu for top end, and pure amped up soc (with gpu, running ~20-80w or so like Intel's lineup) to cabbage up the low-end laptop/pc market. Intel profits will be going down soon if they don't buy NV to take out the fab/arm march that is coming up the chain slowly but surely. It would seem the only way to gun down arm at this point is to figure out a way to buy NV and produce a better ARM soc than anyone on arm's side can with the help of Intel's process (then their fabs would matter again, at least for a while if not forever far longer). Intel can't count on process to beat the enemy now. As they race to 10nm so is TSMC etc. Even if they always are one behind for a while as you can see above Intel isn't winning. Both i5's gpu and CoreM's gpu get smacked around even on 14nm vs. 20nm.
The core pro-app market is a different story, but that's the last part that gets assaulted at the top. Games first, then come the apps once a PC like box is out and has massive numbers to be worth making full pc apps, then pro apps over there etc. Google is surely working as fast as they can on the software side (64bit OS polish, more features etc probably coming Nov with devices), but it seems the hardware will already be ready for the next move to a PC type box when google+AEP etc/advanced unreal 4/unity5 etc games get there. We'll see how far NV gets with the 40w console shortly (the first small salvo I guess with semi-good gaming ability). They also have an updated handheld with X1 coming too, and I hope they update it again with 14nm at xmas or just after. I'll wait for 13in or larger 14nm NV chip for my tablet needs (training vids, and a side of games out to tv). I might buy the handheld x1 update though. I have zero interest in vita/3ds stuff.
One more point, if NV wins the suit against samsung, qcom etc, the rest will fold (or get sued too) and use NV IP which will make everyone have NV like scores on gpu. Again, Intel's best move is to buy NVDA. They'd be suing everyone then and could hold NV's IP back from all the rest or license it at higher fees etc, many ways to do damage owning NV. If win10 is really coming for ARM's side, and brings DX12 with it (kind of have to, to fight off Vulkan/android/iOS/linux/steamos jeez long list) then Intel is even in worse trouble. If they leave out DX 12 (really stupid with fully capable gpus over there, in NV's case maxwell!), I don't see the point for MS as they have to defend against android/vulkan and the rest of the gang I mentioned. MS must embrace ARM fully or Wintel is just headed down as the dominant player (OS share overall already dropping vs. arm's side totals). They'll both survive without the Wintel big stick to push around, but things are definitely changing quickly. Intel losing 4.1B just to sell something on mobile, doesn't lie. Mobile gaming is growing quickly, and it isn't running windows. etc...
serendip - Friday, April 10, 2015 - link
Much as I don't bother with ARM vs Intel debates, I agree with the main points here. Intel can't keep throwing away billions trying to catch up in mobile, especially when desktop and laptop sales are falling. People regularly buy new phones and tablets, PCs not so much. I find that for typical daily computing like web surfing, doing email and handling simple documents, any decent tablet or phablet will do. My laptop has been relegated to a desktop while my Android phablet and cheap Atom Windows tablet travel with me.ARM vs Intel now doesn't matter as much as before as long as good apps are available on whatever platform you choose. With the rise of cloud storage and services, your underlying OS and processor architecture matter even less. Not a good time for Intel after being in the lead for so long.
serendip - Friday, April 10, 2015 - link
That pro-app market will be Intel's last refuge, especially when x86 compatibility is needed. As for the rest, Atoms and ARM SOCs are getting good enough for general purpose computing. It'll be a race to the bottom then... I don't think Intel can maintain its current margins and structure in that environment.Brett Howse - Friday, April 10, 2015 - link
I don't mean to throw a wrench in your whole argument, but your initial numbers are incorrect. The X1 benchmark is showing the Ice Storm Unlimited *Graphics* score, and you are comparing it to the Intel *Overall* score. Easy mistake to make of course since you don't run these benchmarks all day like some.Anyway the Yoga 3 Pro (which you are quoting for Intel) achieved a 59405 Graphics score in that benchmark. The overall score combines the Graphics score with the Physics score (which was 31473 on the Yoga 3 Pro). I don't have the Tegra X1 Physics or Overall scores since that was a preview unit. The top ARM score on the Physics test was the NVIDIA Shield Tablet at 20437.
The NVIDIA tablet is also the highest scoring ARM on 3DMark Ice Storm Unlimited Overall with 36688.
But that's just one benchmark, and a very short one at that.
Xpl1c1t - Friday, April 10, 2015 - link
IC performance is a function of temperature?!?!?! Blasphemy!OneCosmic833 - Friday, April 10, 2015 - link
I don't really understand, why don't the manufacturers put a little bigger heatsink with a FAN of bigger diameter into these portable devices, is it such a problem??? Production costs reduction or bad engineering? I think it would be also possible to keep the same weight if they cut some bulk mass from somewhere else of the device. Simply this throttling is not acceptable for me and an i7 should not have lower performance than i5 in sustained load...This is very very sad for us consumers, like how the manufacturers skimp us ! ! !metayoshi - Friday, April 10, 2015 - link
Great article!I'm very interested in this, though, after reading the whole article: I noticed the Asus laptop with the metal chassis was the one with the 5Y10, and the two devices that are usable as a tablet/is a tablet are the two devices with the 5Y71. However, I know that the Venue 11 Pro comes with a 5Y10 for its base configuration, so it would be interesting to see how that 5Y10 version compares vs the 5Y71 version, knowing it is thermally handicapped compared to the Lenovo, with its fan, and the Asus, which is a laptop with a metal chassis.
I was originally eyeing the Venue 11 Pro, but I jumped on the preorders of the less powerful but still capable Surface 3 with the new Atom SoC. I'm really intrigued by Core M, but all these stories of throttling and whatnot are keeping me away for now.
serendip - Friday, April 10, 2015 - link
Intel has a decent mobile chip with Atom. Core M, not so much. I would rather have a slower Atom chip that costs a lot less and can turbo for long periods than a Core M with much higher performance that isn't accessible to the user thanks to constant throttling. Maybe there should be a caveat on Core M devices like "2.4 GHz processor (for 10 seconds only), base 1 GHz". That way consumers know what they're really in for.ahfei - Tuesday, April 14, 2015 - link
Is 2.6GHz the maximum turbo speed for M-5Y71 for 2 cores, judging from the graph? Cannot find that info anywhere and some even stated the maximum 2.9GHz is for both cores!Brett Howse - Sunday, April 19, 2015 - link
I have never seen them go over 2.6 GHz for both cores. 2.9 GHz seems to be just for a single core.boe_d - Saturday, April 18, 2015 - link
I like the Sony Vaio Z approach - balls the walls hardware, fast processing power, fast storage, fast video and LIGHT. Still lighter than most laptops 5 years later and faster than many of them too! Battery power wasn't great but it had an easy to replace battery.RanBuch - Saturday, July 18, 2015 - link
I own a Lenovo yoga 3 pro. Can I configure the SoC temperature from 65°C to a higher value? I use the device as a "desktop" more often then a tablet and would love to get more juice from my machine even at the expense of the device "overheating" a little bit.HP - Wednesday, August 5, 2015 - link
These processors are perfectly decent. But at the same time, really novel due to the fact that no active cooling is required to run them. This in my view is a positive progression in CPUs together with the SoC philosophy. To have everything integrated into a smaller space. Many users might complain about performance but I bet they don't use their i5 or i7 machines to the fullest potential either. Core-M performance is perfectly decent. Granted, the only slow downs I have experienced is when compiling a Linux kernel say or running multiple FHD videos. But such tasks are run on a less than regular basis so a slight slow down in speed during these exercises is acceptable. The rest of the tasks get carried out very well in a thin, light and quiet design.Atreyiu - Tuesday, February 2, 2016 - link
I know many will disagree with me, but I am a regular user and I hate when my Venue 11 Pro 7140 (5Y10, 64 Gb, 04 Gb RAM) is heated so much that I can not put my right hand in it, that temperature is unbearable from 55 ° C upwards. Should not rise beyond what your skin can handle. This happens pretty and very quickly, then to lower spend enough time. I'm thinking let go of it and look for an alternative. I wanted a balanced team between productivity and way of life, but these temperature rises disenchanted me and the only thing that bothers me because it is fast and has no crashes or anything like that.SandraGok - Tuesday, June 9, 2020 - link
I'm not just inviting you! But it will be interesting for sure loveawake.ru