A 300W supply can comfortably power a 980 (desktop) and 6600k, plus a 3.5W drive and ODD. Drop the motorised drives and add an extra 150W, and powering an extra 980 is not an impossible task.
Checking the serial number ("MS-1W0H1") on the pictured boards indicates they are indeed the 980m and not the full 980 MXM, making the task even easier.
Despite sharing a similar tdp, the 6700k consumes a good 40-50 watt more power than the 6600k. That being said, if the gpus are indeed 980ms then driving this rig would not be a problem for that psu.
That depends entirely on binning, voltages and thermal/power limits. I'd bet MSI is equipping this with low power binned CPUs (to the extent that's possible) and have stricter than usual thermal limits.
Also, as mentioned in the updated article, the GTX 980 (MXM version) has a TDP of 145W. Sure, Maxwell 2 easily spikes up to 250W+, but only for a few ms. TDP for Maxwell 2 cards is roughly equal to average power draw under very heavy loads. So even with 2 SSDs (~5W each under heavy write loads), an i7-6700K and a 3-4W HDD, this should be fine. As long as the PSU is up to modern standards (which it kind of needs to be to fit within that case), it'll handle those loads just fine for years. No real world gaming workload stresses CPU, GPU and drives 100% over any amount of time. My guess would be that this will draw ~350W average while gaming.
Agreed. They should have an option for a single 980 version. Although seeing how they're positioning this for VR, that's probably not happening. After all, VR is a situation where SLI/CFX scaling might come close to 100%.
It would've made no sense to not use SLI here. All the upcoming APIs and 3D use cases make effective use of SLI (VR, Vulkan, DX12, new games on the latter two APIs moving forward, & etc), and you can always dedicate one to particular effects if a program doesn't make most of two.
Most productive apps know what to do with two GPUs at the end of the day, making it's a no-brainer if you're going to pay this much.
Super sweet looking trashcan MSI :) $3999 though, what dream machine could you build for that kind of cash :( Can anyone tell me what relevance Killer connectivity have nowadays, I know they usually get a bad rap (due to Intel having figured out how to wirelessly or wire connect machines to other machines for quote some time now.)
Pascal with HBA2 and the (hopefully) associated thermal savings would be a great companion discrete GPU wise for this platform, cant wait to see what performance Green and Red bring out later in the year!
Also, interesting comparison Anton to the Mac Pro, should MSI be worried about Apple coming after them with their Samsung busting (or not or yes maybe or ...) legal team? Apple are very proactive about protecting their IP right?
Better than mac pro, but still terribly overpriced just for the form factor. Mobile 980 is more than twice more expensive than desktop 980 ($1200 vs $500) and this thing is not really mobile anyway.
I'd rather get a descent liquid-cooled single 980 build over this.
Since announcement, I thought they did an awesome job. Looking at the internals, I was for a surprise as it doesn't have the large and shared heatsink found in the Mac Pro. I reckon, I can build something similar using mini-itx board. The case with a shape of a cube and one large exhaust fan at the top.
Yep, I agree. The main challenge is the PSU - you'd probably have to either use an SFX unit partially disassembled or have one custom made. Perhaps you could place a compact fanless ATX unit at the computer's base, and have all air enter through it? An external PSU would of course be an option, but that ruins this for me at least.
Ideally a build like this would include flipping the GPU around to have its heatsink face inwards, to share the main airflow channel with the CPU heatsink. This can be done with a PCIe extender, but that makes mounting the GPU a challenge. Could still be done, of course.
And you'd need fan control that can control a single fan based on both CPU and GPU temps, of course.
While a large % of the general population have never cracked open a case, I've used nothing else but custom built systems.
Having the options/ability to upgrade/swap out components is what I want.
I can build a better system for my needs, for much less than what people pay for MB Airs.
Steve Jobs PUSHED for closed systems and that is what is wrong with Apples systems IMO. Yes they are pretty, but they are overpriced and under powered IMO.
The Trashcan Mac Pros (ours included) have been having problems with running too hot since the get-go. They're fine for most applications, but tend to have real issues when taxing the dual video cards during video export/transcoding/rendering (mostly affects the D700s, though there are a lot of folks experiencing issues with the D500s). There are lengthy discussions about this on the Adobe Forums; Apple recently announced a replacement program for the GPUs. The form factor is an interesting experiment, but just isn't able to properly deal with the amounts of heat being generated by the dual GPUs. I'd be interested to see how the Vortex fares in a production environment.
SLI 001 in the text, SLI 002 in the table. Then, SLI 002 or SLI 001 is with GTX 980 says the author. Then you go at Amazon and there are two SLI 002 models .One with 960s, one with 980s. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss/183-0896776...
I hope these sell decently and generate follow-ups. While I agree with many commenters it is better to have standardized stuff, I think there is a lot of room for innovative designs as well. The companies who go out on a limb and try something different should not be chastised for trying something new. Clearly this is not going to replace the standard ATX layout, but I like to see some innovation in the PC space outside of Apple.
Apple is a closed ecosystem that doesn't mind bending the rules associated w/ standardized ports & etc.
An overwhelming amount of people that don't buy into Apple system don't want that; they want the exact opposite: they want standardized ports & features used for optimal ability to upgrade.
Accordingly, Apple is unsurprisingly constantly leading to take risks PC manufacturers often *can't* take to appease to an overwhelming amount of their buyers.
I'm not saying this to be a fanboy of either approach. I have a maxed-out '14 Macbook Pro w/ a PC rig w/ 2 980TIs (liquid cooled), 1.2TB NVMe Intel 750 SSD, 32GB Ram, & etc.
Now just make it look like it's aimed at an adult buyer with lots of disposable income rather than the mythical 14 year old they think would afford this. C'mon guys dragons on such an expensive box? Makes it look worth about $400 tops.
It's not a bad idea, but there are a few obvious problems.
-Dependency on a single cooling fan...That fan had better be very, very reliable and I'd be reluctant to put a system like that in a dusty environment out of fear of damaging hardware from ingestion of the usual household carpet/furniture dust and cat/dog hair.
-Custom or near-custom engineering for parts...upgrades are going to be a problem. Either MSI will produce motherboards and GPUs for this system in the future or a buyer won't have a path to replace parts as technology progresses which is part of the appeal of suffering with a clunky old desktop.
-Internal complexity...OMG that exploded image! o.O Taking that thing apart looks worse than a lot of laptops I've had the misfortune of disassembling.
-Selection of parts versus upcoming hardware releases...This is more of a thing for MSI than it is for the customer, but releasing anything with a 28nm GPU or two is going to cause damage in sales as a lot of people who care about graphics enough to buy one or more discrete GPUs is holding off until we move to next generation parts. Sales will be small and MSI will have little compulsion to supply upgraded parts or perpetuate this design principal in light of the poor uptake from customers.
-Silly styling...Red on black again *yawns* and "Oh look, a ninja-samurai-fu-manchu-dragon-with-spikey-bits-in-red-led! That's not only original, but an impressive work of art that makes me want to throw my money at you so I too can enjoy this red and black, dragon themed PC because it will match the Asian stickers I have plastered all over my car's windshield!" said pretty much no one anywhere on the planet.
And lastly...
-The price premium...sure MSI put in about two years of design work into following in Apple's footsteps with an equally limited desktop chassis and innards and needs to make up the cost of all that development plus the high price of low-volume parts inside, but I think buyers are generally more sensible than MSI might think and will opt for more conventional systems.
Aside from those problems, it's a good effort and I look forward to seeing what else comes out of MSI in the future.
No, it's clearly a bad idea. Apple dominates OSX computers and their trashcan Mac pro is THE ONLY somewhat capable desktop in the lineup. So their target audience simply has no other choice, and no one plays game with mac pro anyway.
It's entirely opposite with MSI. There are tons of PC desktop options out there, all much affordable and more expandable than this, and PC gamers DO consider details such as cooling capacity, PSU quality, raw graphics power, expandablity etc.
So who will buy this, really? If you are tech savy you can build a mini ITX system with 980ti at less than $2000, which should have similar performance with $3999 version with two mobile 980 in general and is way better for VR (which won't use SLI). If you are NOT tech savy and need a glorified facebook machine we already have Mac Pro for that.
You do have a good point. There are a lot of other options in the PC market space that aren't available for people who use a Mac Pro. That would certainly further limit its appeal to customers who could easily turn to pretty much any other PC besides MSI's system. The reason why I think there's still a little merit to MSI working on this to begin with is because it's forays into unfamiliar territory like this one that, while warty and overpriced, sometimes push thinking in new directions that would otherwise not have become widely available for consumers. I like that MSI went out on a limb here and though I'd never, ever consider buying this Vortex thing of theirs, I'm happy that they're exploring alternatives to the conventional desktop platform even if that exploration results in dead ends here and there.
This is a pretty cool product, it's nice to see that such a thing is possible. But when it comes to desktops, I'm going to stick to upgradable systems myself.
The idea that a gamer would pay $4k for a pair of gimped 980s as opposed to a more traditional ATX setup seems strange to me. With the MAC I get it, it's a business device with professional GPUs, but this? Seems like it's more of a "gamers will pay anything" play than a legitimate entrance into the SFF game.
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31 Comments
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Le Geek - Thursday, March 17, 2016 - link
I am not sure if a 450w PSU can drive two 980tis and a 6700k under full load.Le Geek - Thursday, March 17, 2016 - link
Sorry I meant 980s.edzieba - Friday, March 18, 2016 - link
A 300W supply can comfortably power a 980 (desktop) and 6600k, plus a 3.5W drive and ODD. Drop the motorised drives and add an extra 150W, and powering an extra 980 is not an impossible task.Checking the serial number ("MS-1W0H1") on the pictured boards indicates they are indeed the 980m and not the full 980 MXM, making the task even easier.
Le Geek - Friday, March 18, 2016 - link
Despite sharing a similar tdp, the 6700k consumes a good 40-50 watt more power than the 6600k. That being said, if the gpus are indeed 980ms then driving this rig would not be a problem for that psu.Valantar - Friday, March 18, 2016 - link
That depends entirely on binning, voltages and thermal/power limits. I'd bet MSI is equipping this with low power binned CPUs (to the extent that's possible) and have stricter than usual thermal limits.Also, as mentioned in the updated article, the GTX 980 (MXM version) has a TDP of 145W. Sure, Maxwell 2 easily spikes up to 250W+, but only for a few ms. TDP for Maxwell 2 cards is roughly equal to average power draw under very heavy loads. So even with 2 SSDs (~5W each under heavy write loads), an i7-6700K and a 3-4W HDD, this should be fine. As long as the PSU is up to modern standards (which it kind of needs to be to fit within that case), it'll handle those loads just fine for years. No real world gaming workload stresses CPU, GPU and drives 100% over any amount of time. My guess would be that this will draw ~350W average while gaming.
Meaker10 - Sunday, March 20, 2016 - link
Looking at the markings on the horribly photoshopped render.... tells you not much.guidryp - Thursday, March 17, 2016 - link
I love the single big fan idea, but I really don't like SLI at all. I would prefer a single GPU version of something like this.Valantar - Friday, March 18, 2016 - link
Agreed. They should have an option for a single 980 version. Although seeing how they're positioning this for VR, that's probably not happening. After all, VR is a situation where SLI/CFX scaling might come close to 100%.lilkwarrior - Thursday, March 24, 2016 - link
It would've made no sense to not use SLI here. All the upcoming APIs and 3D use cases make effective use of SLI (VR, Vulkan, DX12, new games on the latter two APIs moving forward, & etc), and you can always dedicate one to particular effects if a program doesn't make most of two.Most productive apps know what to do with two GPUs at the end of the day, making it's a no-brainer if you're going to pay this much.
WatcherCK - Thursday, March 17, 2016 - link
Super sweet looking trashcan MSI :) $3999 though, what dream machine could you build for that kind of cash :( Can anyone tell me what relevance Killer connectivity have nowadays, I know they usually get a bad rap (due to Intel having figured out how to wirelessly or wire connect machines to other machines for quote some time now.)Pascal with HBA2 and the (hopefully) associated thermal savings would be a great companion discrete GPU wise for this platform, cant wait to see what performance Green and Red bring out later in the year!
Also, interesting comparison Anton to the Mac Pro, should MSI be worried about Apple coming after them with their Samsung busting (or not or yes maybe or ...) legal team? Apple are very proactive about protecting their IP right?
nerd1 - Thursday, March 17, 2016 - link
Better than mac pro, but still terribly overpriced just for the form factor. Mobile 980 is more than twice more expensive than desktop 980 ($1200 vs $500) and this thing is not really mobile anyway.I'd rather get a descent liquid-cooled single 980 build over this.
lilkwarrior - Thursday, March 24, 2016 - link
IDK about a single 980. That card went the way of the dinosaur pretty fast. Liquid cool 980TIs in SLI w/ a NVMe or Octane SSD & call it day.Death666Angel - Friday, March 18, 2016 - link
How about no? I personally don't see the appeal in this. Unless you need to burn some cash.zodiacfml - Friday, March 18, 2016 - link
Since announcement, I thought they did an awesome job. Looking at the internals, I was for a surprise as it doesn't have the large and shared heatsink found in the Mac Pro.I reckon, I can build something similar using mini-itx board. The case with a shape of a cube and one large exhaust fan at the top.
Valantar - Friday, March 18, 2016 - link
Yep, I agree. The main challenge is the PSU - you'd probably have to either use an SFX unit partially disassembled or have one custom made. Perhaps you could place a compact fanless ATX unit at the computer's base, and have all air enter through it? An external PSU would of course be an option, but that ruins this for me at least.Ideally a build like this would include flipping the GPU around to have its heatsink face inwards, to share the main airflow channel with the CPU heatsink. This can be done with a PCIe extender, but that makes mounting the GPU a challenge. Could still be done, of course.
And you'd need fan control that can control a single fan based on both CPU and GPU temps, of course.
samlebon2306 - Friday, March 18, 2016 - link
Ugly. Very ugly.GotThumbs - Friday, March 18, 2016 - link
While it's look cool and all.I pass on such a propritary format.
While a large % of the general population have never cracked open a case, I've used nothing else but custom built systems.
Having the options/ability to upgrade/swap out components is what I want.
I can build a better system for my needs, for much less than what people pay for MB Airs.
Steve Jobs PUSHED for closed systems and that is what is wrong with Apples systems IMO. Yes they are pretty, but they are overpriced and under powered IMO.
MSI is copying a format I won't buy.
Derjis - Friday, March 18, 2016 - link
The Trashcan Mac Pros (ours included) have been having problems with running too hot since the get-go. They're fine for most applications, but tend to have real issues when taxing the dual video cards during video export/transcoding/rendering (mostly affects the D700s, though there are a lot of folks experiencing issues with the D500s). There are lengthy discussions about this on the Adobe Forums; Apple recently announced a replacement program for the GPUs.The form factor is an interesting experiment, but just isn't able to properly deal with the amounts of heat being generated by the dual GPUs. I'd be interested to see how the Vortex fares in a production environment.
yannigr2 - Friday, March 18, 2016 - link
Again errors in the article?SLI 001 in the text, SLI 002 in the table. Then, SLI 002 or SLI 001 is with GTX 980 says the author. Then you go at Amazon and there are two SLI 002 models .One with 960s, one with 980s.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss/183-0896776...
Rocket321 - Friday, March 18, 2016 - link
I hope these sell decently and generate follow-ups. While I agree with many commenters it is better to have standardized stuff, I think there is a lot of room for innovative designs as well. The companies who go out on a limb and try something different should not be chastised for trying something new. Clearly this is not going to replace the standard ATX layout, but I like to see some innovation in the PC space outside of Apple.lilkwarrior - Thursday, March 24, 2016 - link
Apple is a closed ecosystem that doesn't mind bending the rules associated w/ standardized ports & etc.An overwhelming amount of people that don't buy into Apple system don't want that; they want the exact opposite: they want standardized ports & features used for optimal ability to upgrade.
Accordingly, Apple is unsurprisingly constantly leading to take risks PC manufacturers often *can't* take to appease to an overwhelming amount of their buyers.
I'm not saying this to be a fanboy of either approach. I have a maxed-out '14 Macbook Pro w/ a PC rig w/ 2 980TIs (liquid cooled), 1.2TB NVMe Intel 750 SSD, 32GB Ram, & etc.
jabber - Friday, March 18, 2016 - link
Now just make it look like it's aimed at an adult buyer with lots of disposable income rather than the mythical 14 year old they think would afford this. C'mon guys dragons on such an expensive box? Makes it look worth about $400 tops.BrokenCrayons - Friday, March 18, 2016 - link
It's not a bad idea, but there are a few obvious problems.-Dependency on a single cooling fan...That fan had better be very, very reliable and I'd be reluctant to put a system like that in a dusty environment out of fear of damaging hardware from ingestion of the usual household carpet/furniture dust and cat/dog hair.
-Custom or near-custom engineering for parts...upgrades are going to be a problem. Either MSI will produce motherboards and GPUs for this system in the future or a buyer won't have a path to replace parts as technology progresses which is part of the appeal of suffering with a clunky old desktop.
-Internal complexity...OMG that exploded image! o.O Taking that thing apart looks worse than a lot of laptops I've had the misfortune of disassembling.
-Selection of parts versus upcoming hardware releases...This is more of a thing for MSI than it is for the customer, but releasing anything with a 28nm GPU or two is going to cause damage in sales as a lot of people who care about graphics enough to buy one or more discrete GPUs is holding off until we move to next generation parts. Sales will be small and MSI will have little compulsion to supply upgraded parts or perpetuate this design principal in light of the poor uptake from customers.
-Silly styling...Red on black again *yawns* and "Oh look, a ninja-samurai-fu-manchu-dragon-with-spikey-bits-in-red-led! That's not only original, but an impressive work of art that makes me want to throw my money at you so I too can enjoy this red and black, dragon themed PC because it will match the Asian stickers I have plastered all over my car's windshield!" said pretty much no one anywhere on the planet.
And lastly...
-The price premium...sure MSI put in about two years of design work into following in Apple's footsteps with an equally limited desktop chassis and innards and needs to make up the cost of all that development plus the high price of low-volume parts inside, but I think buyers are generally more sensible than MSI might think and will opt for more conventional systems.
Aside from those problems, it's a good effort and I look forward to seeing what else comes out of MSI in the future.
nerd1 - Sunday, March 20, 2016 - link
No, it's clearly a bad idea. Apple dominates OSX computers and their trashcan Mac pro is THE ONLY somewhat capable desktop in the lineup. So their target audience simply has no other choice, and no one plays game with mac pro anyway.It's entirely opposite with MSI. There are tons of PC desktop options out there, all much affordable and more expandable than this, and PC gamers DO consider details such as cooling capacity, PSU quality, raw graphics power, expandablity etc.
So who will buy this, really? If you are tech savy you can build a mini ITX system with 980ti at less than $2000, which should have similar performance with $3999 version with two mobile 980 in general and is way better for VR (which won't use SLI). If you are NOT tech savy and need a glorified facebook machine we already have Mac Pro for that.
BrokenCrayons - Monday, March 21, 2016 - link
You do have a good point. There are a lot of other options in the PC market space that aren't available for people who use a Mac Pro. That would certainly further limit its appeal to customers who could easily turn to pretty much any other PC besides MSI's system. The reason why I think there's still a little merit to MSI working on this to begin with is because it's forays into unfamiliar territory like this one that, while warty and overpriced, sometimes push thinking in new directions that would otherwise not have become widely available for consumers. I like that MSI went out on a limb here and though I'd never, ever consider buying this Vortex thing of theirs, I'm happy that they're exploring alternatives to the conventional desktop platform even if that exploration results in dead ends here and there.Flunk - Friday, March 18, 2016 - link
This is a pretty cool product, it's nice to see that such a thing is possible. But when it comes to desktops, I'm going to stick to upgradable systems myself.Wolfpup - Friday, March 18, 2016 - link
Okay, I admit the looks are fun, and it should be portable-throw it in a bag for work in place of a notebook.BUT still, it's pricier than higher-end hardware that's not TOO dissimilar in size (I don't think?) so... interesting though...
Crono454 - Sunday, March 20, 2016 - link
In the article it says no word on the audio codec and days only headphone and mic, but there's clearly and optical port in the picturefanofanand - Monday, March 21, 2016 - link
The idea that a gamer would pay $4k for a pair of gimped 980s as opposed to a more traditional ATX setup seems strange to me. With the MAC I get it, it's a business device with professional GPUs, but this? Seems like it's more of a "gamers will pay anything" play than a legitimate entrance into the SFF game.aneskee - Monday, March 21, 2016 - link
Unboxing the new MSI Vortex:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV0clz-P6PM
easp - Tuesday, March 22, 2016 - link
Wow, very Mac Pro-like! Except that it looks like ass.